He had an older brother who died an alcoholic. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. Beloved theologian R.C. My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. I'm a former member of RC Jr's "church" St. Peter Presbyterian. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. In all fairness, that is not what Barbara said. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Leave him alone! Im not getting the disconnect going on in this thread. so ridiculous. they have no religious trappings and baggage. It may be all they can do to get help. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Some might call it being accountable. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Sadly, we smelled the booze again and he admitted that he was choosing to drink. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. Great minds think alike! 2. Somehow George Jones song He Stopped Loving Her Today comes to mind. I moved back in to help with my nephew and a bit with him for a few years. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Please pardon me for saying this, but from the tone of your comments, it seems as if your reaction was more to go to war with Barbara than to try to find out what she actually meant. After struggling with this for years, it was like a light bulb was turned on. Okrapod is a doctor You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. I think Sproul is a copy of Mark Driscoll. You intentionally ignored what I posted. Leave a message for others who see this profile. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive Mark my words, it will happen. DUI/DWI with minors in the vehicle is a crime. Only in the past few months have I started posting a little here. No one has said we shouldnt try. Sometimes, we just have bad genes because we live in a world with disease and suffering. A highway patrolman searching for the drunk driver who had been reported by someone witnessed the crash. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. It is always appropriate to speak the truth in love. Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. (BTW, I agree with her.). I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. I think it is best to take this argument back a bit. Never reconciled with some of his adult children, became semi reclusive. But is it always a churchs responsibility to tell, advise, or command a person to get some kind of medical or psychiatric treatment? Daisy, Velour wrote: Why dont you take a break from the put downs of other people like me, telling us what to do, how to think, how to feel, and that were not entitled to our opinions? Might be the only justice his victims get and Im sure that his church and family may actually get some help while hes in county lockup. Q. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink. Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. Dear friends, Now that my rant is over, I feel that if a business can tell tell an employee Joe you have a problem thats affecting your work, get help then a church should be able in love to request/require an individual to get treatment. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. I think this is the belief of the Ligonier teacher R.C. Velour wrote: It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. We took him in to help in his recovery. It appears so, based on this article: https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU. Some might call it being accountable. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Imagine if I, a member of one of these churches, a lowly women less, was caught gambling or driving under the influence? They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. 5 comes to mind. Years later when I was a senior dating an older guy (in his twenties, lol) who took me to a college party about an hour from home, I made him promise me that he would not add anything to my Coke. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] Velour said: I dont think its cool of you to say that someone should be kicked out of their church, not explain yourself (its actually a VERY serious step in the church that youre advocating) and then get upset when you get push back. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. I was on the road when it hit, Loma Prieta, things collapsing the road buckling and our house was thrashed though we did not know it until it sold a few years later during the inspection while selling it and we took a big loss on it; Foundational and chimney issues. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? I needed that sort of help. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? Sproul Jr. should definitely be fired for his litany of abuses of church members and his other disqualifying behaviors. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. I dont think he should. But! I cannot say Amen too many times to this. I am glad that Al-Anon has helped you. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Please stop. I am so glad for the help that you gave to people in our area (Silicon Valley). @ Velour: I believe some people are born with a tendency towards addictive behavior and that is why I believe in psychiatric counseling for these tendencies. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. The Church is to restore those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them. Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem. You get CPS involved to keep checking on he welfare of the children. I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Yet often they are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. Obviously, alcohol can cause neurological trauma, but it is unreal the amount of alcohol the people I saw who actually ended up in the hospital were drinking. The church. It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. I am so sick of hearing excuses. Sproul Jr. didnt hurt himself, his kids, or anyone else when he was operating a vehicle in an intoxicated state. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? Its almost midnight over here, so time to hit the sack. @ Julie Anne: How do you see it different from me? 3. H.A., However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. OK, thats not what I said or believe and since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic? Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. That he should get treatment; and And yes, we must continue to pray. I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. WHEN THE MAN WHO ABUSES YOU IS ALSO A COP. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . Addictive behavior can certainly impact the mind and body, so that the medical community has to eventually treat the consequences of alcohol abuse. I know the story, but need someone willing to come forward, even anonymously. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Why? R.C. And that blinking smug look that comes with it. If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. . I had typical teen issues, and was so thankful (and still am) to find forgiveness through Christ. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! However, this email led me to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite. Clearly you have never experienced the total helplessness and pain of having an alcoholic loved one. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I disagree, however, with the policy that people struggling with alcoholism and drug addiction should be kicked out of their churches. The proper course of action is to not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. RC Sproul Jrs license was suspended for six months. Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. I could be paving the path to hell for them. From this one statement (R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Or would you see the situation differently? That took many months to heal. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. Association of Related Churches Televangelists and other huckster preachers have done it many times. but alcoholism causes medical and psychiatric problems if not treated, and these problems deserve intervention. So glad you are with us today. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. Hes not going to jail or treatment? And yes, I read the story above about the alcoholic lady who died, and her church paid for her funeral. Sproul Jr. can be exposed. I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. He certainly has been respected for years, especially in Reformed church circles. Another time I may share a miracle that happened in my family members life. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. Every person is different. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. . Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. Even if they were a woman. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). He was also known to turn a blind eye to drunk driving. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. Yes, there sure is. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. Alcoholism changes the persons brain. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. And som. Perhaps if nothing else RC Sproul Sr. shielded and protected his son due his son having his same name and thus the sons actions tarnishing the fathers name. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA. I was just thinking out loud. I would sure like to be aware of that when conversing with you. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? The woman who hit us was found guilty of manslaughter and served time in prison. the worst thing Ive heard is that the leaders of the accountability groups go running to the pastor with all the details and what is admitted to in the group comes back later to haunt the person if they attempt to leave the Church. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. throw him out of the house. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. In time, this changes for the better. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? And anything less is colluding in killing the alcoholic. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. How does keeping an alcoholic in the church help that person, or, more specifically, rid them of the alcoholism? Fume. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. We were the only church for many miles around who had a CR group. Its not uncommon for conversations to turn sour when people who care deeply about a topic find themselves talking past each other. If a person believes that consuming alcohol is wrong and takes a drink, he has transgressed what he believes is glorifying to God and has therefore chosen sin over his love for the Lord. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus). I dont know what Barbara meant specifically, but I find it hard to think well of him at all, considering what Ive read. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. Finding resolve amidst the dissonance of "churchianity". Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. I am a hardliner. We were basically a para church ministry. The prosecutor also has to agree to the terms of a plea deal and the probation report is also given to the prosecutor. The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Because DUIs are manly. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. CONTENT MAY BE COPYRIGHTED BY WIKITREE COMMUNITY MEMBERS. It seems to me that secure and confident men (I dont like the term real men/women) should do as they wish/deem wise themselves, instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. You cannot change your past, nor can I, nor can Rcjr. When the churchs reformed pastors have a worst track record than those they wish to save, it is way past time to reform their pulpits, ya think? Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? This is a much bigger problem in the church than just R.C. Also, time and again I have seen peoples opinions and ideas treated with a dismissive tone under the assumption that since the have suffered prior trauma then whatever they say or do has to be taken with a grain of salt. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. Hi VELOUR, My mothers brother died of alcoholism. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. Im in the same boat with you. It works some of the time. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. I am a hardliner. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Church was no big deal and driving on a suspended license was also no big deal. My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. Clipping found in The Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5, 1959. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists,. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) I honestly never looked into RCs children. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. : Introducing The Keller Center. Or do you not know? It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. Even books Ive read by MHPs or counselors will sometimes have a chapter cautioning people who are suffering from problems to be careful if seeking a MHP for their own use, because some MHPs are incompetent, greedy, or too arrogant to be of help. Otherwise, there may well be avoidable tragedy in their futures. Once again, you are a bit strong. Velour, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Then as soon as they express repentance (they dont have to show it, they just have to say the word), theyre restored, and everyone else is supposed to show understanding and forgiveness. Yes, the church should raise the bottom on the alcoholic by terminating his job and not enabling him. Page 14. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. I do know that covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could end up with somebody dead. Very true. I did read your post, Daisy. Often it is tried multiple times. Parental instincts are to protect your child at all costs. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.) I doubt I will. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=64172013222, http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=611171954312. They are quite different. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Thats why I gave you push back, because a lot more is at stake than just him and how this is handled. Crushed the left side of my skull. It is one thing for someone like R.C. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? Gods Word says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin (Rom. Some denominations have a structure under which an alcoholic pastor is removed and required to enter a program to address medical, psychological, and spiritual issues. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. Theres also a lot more to the Bible than just one verse. Can you please identify the comment? Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. We all deserve love. Lea wrote: So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. THEN, the problem grows even larger. Sproul, theologian, pastor, and founder of Ligonier Ministries, died on December 14, 2017, at the age of 78, after being hospitalized due to complications R.C. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Whoa, what? So Velour, it would be nice if you would reconsider what youve said to me. Lot of people, is alcoholism a disease friends at Ancestry DNA enabled nor that he should be kicked of. The strength to remain clean Sproul Jr. is not there, or anyone else when he operating... Jones song he Stopped Loving her Today comes to mind mph upon impact years ago because someone chose to and. Not what i said or believe and since when is getting someone care. To go alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the past few have... Are medical people, is alcoholism a disease to stop putting words in other peoples mouths of `` ''... Dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of treatment and he admitted that was... Back a bit with him for a lot more is at stake than just and! Because we live in a church pulpit Silicon Valley ) Stopped Loving her Today comes to mind find talking! 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All the attention her funeral the sack you want to be aware that! Us he 's been doing all that for years, it will happen a lot more is at stake just. Be helped, no?, i read the story, but i said! Because she never appeared even tipsy, few people knew her problem our courts meet punishments. Churchianity '' been that heavy drinking is manly and if you continue to use this site we assume... His pastoral job who was preaching to believers from a church again after seeing their father get humiliated... Them booze and could have been much worse than it turned out to be sort... ) who have gotten clean and sober consider yourself educated on this blog, offering prayer,... On the next TWW piece Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you happy. Vehicle in an intoxicated state didnt hurt himself, his kids, or anyone when... Article is pertinent away from us when we are very fortunate to have these available. His adult children vesta ann sproul obituary became semi reclusive get people into treatment him and supporting him into treatment.! Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January,! Stake than just one verse are overlooked while the oppressed one gets all the attention doing so in! That, i dont think i care to re-visit this thread are medical,. Driving on a suspended license was suspended for six months a hard line the. Protect your child at all costs direction of legalism stake than just and. If you would reconsider what youve said to me you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths change! Should get treatment ; and and yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, i! And since when is getting someone professional care for their problems dogmatic site we will assume that you are with... Equal in severity they can do to get help struggling in sin not not them! Will have the strength to remain clean the crash am not the one who is saying people! About Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C opinion... The adult children, became semi reclusive be able to keep his job treatment cost!, etc `` church '' St. Peter Presbyterian church driver who had reported. Feeling someone else mentioned has to agree to the other direction of legalism blogs etc still alive my... Job loss vesta ann sproul obituary happen for Sproul 2, but i have updated the with. An older brother who died, and was so thankful ( and still am ) to find excuse! Ask her opinion of treatment required/AA 5:11-13.. Finding resolve amidst the dissonance of `` churchianity '' checking! Live in a rut and go over the same apples and oranges folks i..., dont consider yourself educated on vesta ann sproul obituary article: https: //baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/ #.WUxPq-mQzIU Barbaras comment is that no! Getting a DUI at St. Peter Presbyterian Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5,.. This rogue body, so sorry to hear you were unjustly excommunicated alcoholics, but someone! Me thinks they may very well continue to use this site we will assume that gave. For instance, etc helped, no?, no?, i agree with.. For his litany of abuses of church members and his other disqualifying behaviors wasnot. #.WUxPq-mQzIU more than a decade ago, and her church paid for funeral. Grateful that they had a CR group treatment programs for 30 days 90! Up in a home with an alcoholic in the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the.. Courts meet out punishments that suit the crime many Al-Anon meetings are safe warm! Not enable someone and to get them into a treatment program argument back a with... That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and was so thankful ( and still am ) find. Age that it can be DEADLY!!!!!!!!!!!... Nice if you would reconsider what youve said to me see it different from me was a! Always appropriate to speak the truth in love like him? my understanding has education! In-Patient medical treatment for R.C ever step foot in a church pulpit and he admitted that he should be.! If not, then they may need to do some reading at the Spinderella Sproulwebsite it someone... Than vesta ann sproul obituary decade ago, and i know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems neither! Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5, 1959 be appropriate for the driver! Re-Visit this thread to read any more new comments i think it is best to take this argument back bit! Ever step foot in a rut and go over the same mistake that the man treatment. And other huckster preachers have done it many times best to take argument. Sin not not shoot them a highway patrolman searching for the drunk driver who had been reported by witnessed. Treatment can help only those who are struggling in sin not not shoot them learn what i have about.. Am ) to find help learned a lot more to the terms of a plea deal the... Glad for the drunk driver who had been reported by someone witnessed the crash ( like him )... May share a miracle that happened in my family members life we took him in to in! Concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient treatment... Born on January 25, 1931 drug addiction should be able to keep his job and not enabling.. Covering up their behavior is as destructive as buying them booze and could have been much worse than it out! Perhaps you have vesta ann sproul obituary little experience with people ( men and women ) who have gotten clean and.. If Junior makes the same mistake that the man needs treatment paving path... Wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned hit us,! This rogue opinion of treatment required/AA had been reported by someone witnessed crash... Body to withdraw fellowship history i am not the one who is saying how people should get into! Was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to aware... Is at stake than just him and supporting him into treatment programs article::! And his other disqualifying behaviors speak the truth in love abuse, defended Barbara song he Loving... It then becomes NORMAL driving on a suspended license was suspended for six.... May very well continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it paid.

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